Hi John

You say “What most people want to see is a universal protection scheme that goes beyond the traditional package market. That means a levy on all holiday elements – accommodation and flights”

1] Are you looking to cover flight only and accommodation only transactions? What about when consumers deal directly with the ultimate supplier?
2] When you say “most people” do you mean agents – or do you also include suppliers?

Thanks!
Alex

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I made sure I had cover on my travel insurance policy – why should I have to pay an extra £3 on my flight tickets when I’m already protected. I’m sure the travel insurance companies won’t decrease my premium by £3 if ATOL is expanded for flight only bookings.

If people are concerned about their flights why don’t they just get adequate insurance and stop relying on the state!!!!

Milly

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John is right when he says that the public want one common protection. Most customers aren’t interested in ATOL, ABTA or TTA, and most find it confusing. All the public is interested in is that their money is safe in the event of a business failure.

But I can’t really see that John’s answer will change some of the fundamental problems consumers are facing. If ABTA is a “point of reference” and CAA will still administer the business and financial end of the system how would that help the consumers who are still waiting for their XL refunds eight months after the company’s demise? Is he saying that ABTA would be responsible for providing the ATOL refunds? I can’t see that working.

And what would he say to those Freedom Direct customers who feel they have been let down by ABTA? In many cases there have been complaints about the level of service and the ultimate advice given by ABTA. For these people there really has been nowhere to turn because the natural place to turn to would be ABTA! Therefore, if ABTA are going to be the main point of reference for everything, the service they provide the consumer needs to be almost beyond reproach. How can he guarantee this?

It strikes me as ironic that ABTA issues its members with strict guidelines on how they deal with consumers, yet whenever consumers have any dealings with ABTA it’s not unknown for them to come away feeling disappointed and let down.

I also think that Alex is touching on a point that there are a lot of people in the industry who aren’t very keen on a levvy on each element as t

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Hi,

I am no expert but I don’t think it takes rocket science to work out how could the levy be extended to cover airlines and other parts of the holiday when the existing levy is being increased to from £1 £3 due to one large tour operator loss called XL. Airlines for example as a business must be a least some 20 times bigger as an operation than any tour operator, so how can a new £3 levy cover that when some 30 airlines went bust last year, next they will putting the levy cost up to £30+ per person. This all seems crazy to me how anyone can put together a protection for everything, it’s seems the consumer does not have the right to decide and have the freedom to know whether they are protected or not and make their own decision to take out protection or not. It appears more and more travel insurance policies are including cover now to protect all the loop holes in the ATOL and ABTA protection. ABTA’s own travel insurance policy includes such protection.

That said as a travel agent myself our agency uses the ABTA Protection Plans to cover our consumers so we know and can state that anything booked through our agency is 100% protected. Therefore any ABTA agent can effect these covers online and in conjunction with the existing ABTA protection, I believe ABTA agents are the only association in the world to offer such extensive protection, no need to increase the cover of the levy and charge consumers even more money through ATOL as all they do is refer everything to the credit card anyway.

Why cannot the government pass a simple law, anyone selling travel must issue a document stating whether a holiday is protection or not so the consumer has the choice to protect that element or holiday. If the document is not issue then the agent is fined. Funny though I do not know of any other industry where the consumer buys from except for perhaps insurance where there is protection and so much fuss made about lack of protection !

Donna

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Hi All,

I agree, consumers need to be informed whether a holiday or any part of a holiday is or not protected. Without this consumers are confused and will just take for granted that they are covered when it comes to losing their holiday.

I like Donna’s idea of a legal disclosure to customers, this would take the pressure of the industry to have to find a solution which is impossible for any levy or insurance and just allow the consumer to be informed and make their own decision to take out protection or not.

There are various insurance protections out there to cover the gaps, travel insurance policies, ABTA’s own protection plans and websites such as ProtectMyHoliday.com whom offer stand alone cover as a compliment to any holiday arrangements of travel insurance without protection provided.

If i buy a sofa for my lounge this weekend for delivery in 20 weeks time, i have no protection !

John

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@Alex – it’s an interesting question you ask. We have to be honest about what ABTA is all about; I think it is protecting the interests of the UK travel industry and making sure consumers here get the very best treatment. I’d envisage a protection fee that is paid when people book with a UK operator or agent. Of course, holidaymakers are free to book direct with a hotel overseas, but they will be doing so at their own risk. It may well be the time for our industry to make that fact crystal clear.
When I say ‘most people’ I mean the vast majority working in the travel industry (ops and agents) who recognise the current law is a mess, and consumers.

@Milly. Typical travel insurance policies don’t cover supplier failure or repatriation. If a holiday supplier or airline goes under, customers want their money back if they haven’t travelled. Those overseas need practical help without incurring extra costs. Having to find another flight back from a long-haul destination, plus maybe a few more nights’ accommodation, can leave people thousands of pounds out of pocket. The current confusion has been allowed to grow up, in part, through the reluctance of airlines to be included in a universal protection scheme – the big carriers say they are too big to fail, but we’ve seen plenty of them go under in recent years. Of course, people can buy seperate Scheduled Airline Failure Insurance, but that currently works out more expensive than any universal protection would be.

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Thank you John

Last year my Flexicover AMT did not have the protection and this year it has got the cover and it did not cost any extra premium – why should I have to pay £3 for a government scheme which from Simon’s email does not appear to be working anyway and could not withstand another failure (as you say John, no airline is too big to fail).

Plus I’ve just re-read the policy and it does cover additional costs to get home.

I don’t expect the government to cover my hospital fees in America why should it bail me out if my airline fails.

I’ve made sure I’m covered why don’t others take 5 minutes to ensure they’re properly insured instead of relying on a government which has enough problems bailing out failed enterprises without adding to it.

Milly

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I’d also like to see the other Candidates Views on your questions Darren. Are we also going to see an Interview with Daniele Broccoli?

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The fear that merchant services won’t deal with travel companies because of the risk is a very real one – we recently had a in depth business re-assessment done on us by our merchant services provider – simply because we were a travel company and they needed to assess the risk. The nameless provider had just suffered a huge loss through a travel company going under but it was very scary for us to think that we might lose our credit card facilities (we didn’t!).

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good question Darren.. any answers about “fixed questions”?

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I made a load of comments on another (closely related) blog to this, so do not wish to repeat all of that (can I say where? No, it’s not my own!) . The nub of this is that ABTA’s role could become much more complex yet even more vital than it has ever been. ABTA is faced with climbing a mountain that was once conquered – only to be brought down by the EEC and others interfering where it was not required, analysing things incorrectly and then applying totally confusing and inappropriate remedies – which is why the whole gambit of bonding – or rather, protection for the public is in such a shambles at this time.

What one needs to know, is if any of the candidates are of such a stature and carry enough respect of the travel industry (this is not an crtique, by the way, and one is not casting aspertions, just hypothesising) as to be able to present the case and carry it forward. Many say “I am buying a car/ fridge/ whatsit and have no protection – why should travel?” The answer is simple: Bread and Circuses, as Caesar said. The modern circus is the annual holiday which represents the largest element of a family’s annual outlay. Put that in doubt and you cast into doubt a fundamental pillar of our society. Can the candidates carry this burden forward?

By the way, insurance is not the answer; insurance is about profit, not public protection . ABTA was felt by consumers to be on the side of the people, not on the side of business; ATOL is perceived as an organ of Government , again, not of the people. (eh?) Indeed, if one was to rely on insurance companies, given their profit motive either a) they would exclude just about anything even remotely “less than gold plated” or b) impose upon travel providors such terms as would make stabiliser seem a walk in the park. Neither are credit cards a bondng panacea. It will not take long before credit cards decide that being a surrogate bonding outfit is not what they are in business for; their power and money means they can do something about it.

So, a new generation has to re-enter the school of hard knocks. We have seen the veritable calamity that was the collapse of Freedom Direct (not, I might add, a criticism of FD but a criticism of the failled system that tried to come into play). A new ABTA President needs to be someone who has the charisma and standing to bang heads together, to be able to rise head and shoulders above all others and to be able to talk sense into these fools in Brussles …

But I have already said all this in another place!

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.. then again ABTA may decide that it has been there, done that and fixed it – and beureaucrats simply decided (wrongly as it happens) that they could do better, so stuff all the being the “champion of protection”. Trouble is, then – quo vadis?

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@ Murray.. hear hear

Insurance is not the way forward, they would run when the claims came in, we seen this time and time again…. As Darren has shown a government body is like all government departments..slow and cumbersome, even if they try and do there best we what they are given. (No blame to the CAA here as I think the staff there have hands tied and if could they would do more and be better at it).

ABTA has to be more political and open in the way things are done. This is the first time that I am aware that an internal ABTA election has become so public. to quote TW “what next? Live TV debates? Trips to the Town centers and kissing of babies?”

But worse of all both incoming and outgoing tourism is almost so unimportant to the government that we might as well be on another planet, this is the challenge for ABTA not just the chairman to change.

We both candidates promising the same thing to lobby the next question is which candidate will do better, and that will depend on the member.. if you wish someone who has risen to the top and now sits in an office, with it’s (as we have seen) resources to call on, or someone that still runs a travel agent and tour operator from the front.

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It’s this “stature” thing. The ability for an ABTA president to be a statesman for the travel trade, irrespective of incoming, outgoing tourism. Someone who represents the travel industry as a whole, through all its facets and through all its nooks and crannies. Given the hard road that needs to be followed, this is not a time for some wet behind the ears dynamic young type with flair, it is time for someone who has the widest and most in depth knowledge of as many aspects of travel as possible – so yes, a spell “on the counter”, at the sharp end of travel would be a vital element. That person should be able to see the widest picture of our industry. There were many, in the past, who had this ability.

We have seen what bright young people achieve. We have had enough examples of that. Take the banking fiasco – where were the people of stature with the experience and wisdom to forsee these events? Take our Railways, where the first job after privatisation was to replace anyone who knew how to run a railway. Look at the track record of the present CEO of British Airways – all mergers failed and the biggest loss in BA’s corporate history. And, of course, look at what has happened to customer protection in travel.

The last thing we want is someone who will come along and decided the best thing would be to, er… change the logo. I do accept that there are many BYP who have achieved success, but they are relatively few and far between. For each of those that have been successful, there are two or three who haven’t. My vote has always been with that person who, at the end of the day, still knows how part A bolts on to part B. Not in theory, in practice. Froth and gloss is not an option.

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I could write for hours on this but will keep it short and to the point.
ABTA is a waste of space. Its a marketing organisation designed to encourage bookings and nothing more.
Turn to ABTA and you will be disappointed. I was left in Athens by an airline after being supplied with the wrong boarding card (along with 50 others). Two years on and I am still at court fighting just to get the additional money I spent back. ABTA says it is nothing to do with them even though we informed them the company was displaying their logo illegally. They can’t even be bothered to defend that.
Credit cards offer more protection to the consumer and you don’t pay a premium on top of your holiday for the ‘benefit’ of going to an agent.
They complain they don’t like the current confusion. Complete tosh. If the public knew the facts ABTA would be a distant memory. How can you possibly encompass all in one consumer championed protectionist policy when companies from outside the UK can trade online completely unregulated? This makes ABTA an unnecessary additional burden for SME’s starting in the UK travel industry.
They provide support to a ring fenced, high barrier industry designed to keep the tour operators in an oligopoly and everyone else feeding off the scraps. The sooner they are ousted by a ‘everyone pays a levy system’ the better. I bet they lobby against any increase because they know the more protection this fee provides the less relevent they become. Why is the travel industry so special anyway?
Rant over.

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Andy,

ABTA is a trade body same as all other trade bodies, it works for it members. So yes if you have a problem with someone who is not a member then they can not help you. Same with any other trade body. As to defending there logo they will use trademark laws to stop this same as Microsoft will act against copy software. I know this is there standard reply if you have informed them.

@ Murray I am sure the 50/60 year olds on the railtrack board will be happy to hear they are to young as will the chairman and directors of the various banks who are in the 50’s and 60’s. At the same time the only person who pointed out there was a problem with the banking system (a baby in his 40’s) was not listened to.
On a personal note Murray if you where running I probably vote for you.

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