may i draw readers of your fine blog to this recent story>>>

klm, ed, travo

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Well, hopefully, from a holiday-maker’s point of view things will only get better

Right now I see a lot of experimentation going on with mashups etc and these are often done by individuals with an idea – not usually travel companies it seems.

Kevin gave us a glimpse into the mentality of the travel industry and their thoughts on web 2.0 and associated technologies, where he observed that they like the idea of web 2.0 (social media etc) but can’t see how to make money from it. They won’t, is the quick answer, not if they’re spending their time battling with public complaints.

What they should be doing is building their own social networks but aside from dodgy affiliate schemes, they’re all pretty closed in their mentalities. By that I mean, they don’t embrace social networking because it’s not part of their ethos – to do so would require massive changes to their whole structures.

That gives ‘us’ (Jane and Joe Public) an opportunity to create something worthwhile in our chosen fields.

Just recently I visited a holiday rental site owned by HomeAway and they are running an affiliate scheme where you get $2 for introducing an enquiry and $10 for a booking. Great, I thought, now we’re going to get spammed by holiday rental homes!

The largest holiday rental site in the UK has just redesigned their site but they’ve gone from 1996 to 2000 in their approach! Maybe in 4 years they’ll get it right but what will the internet landscape look like by then?

A friend of mine once commented that the problem with holiday rental sites, as such, is they are most often used by older people – which could explain why they are stuck in their ways.

But, I countered, old people die and young people get older. Just like life, the internet never stands still. You’re only number 1 until someone else comes along with a better idea – and one that is open and free!

Estimates reckon that next year Adobe’s Flash will be overtaken by a free and open technology known as AJAX, as a means to deliver interactivity to websites.

In my view, the travel industry is struggling to come to terms with this new openness. Is social networking, web 2.0 etc, the Glasnost of the travel industry?

If so, what need is a bit of Perestroika! (not a pair of strikers, although West Ham could be doing with someone to partner Tevez)

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Darren, I think it was very easy in the early days to set these sort of sites up (holiday rentals) but harder now, unless you are working in a niche, but even then you’d have your work cut out.

One of the problems with these sites is not so much the design, there are some very good ones, but it’s their mentality. Their credibility is often always lacking too.

Careful with your backend though (ooh err missus!), you may find it needs scrapping and starting a fresh.

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Can’t go into specifics as both accusations cover a myriad of examples but on the subject of credibility I came across one rental site during my research boasting they advertised in magazines – this was blurb aimed at owners by the way, as an incentive for them to sign up.

When I saw the ads they spoke about they were ads in overseas property mags with a call to action for more owners to sign up to their website. Not ads for the general public.

As far as mentality goes you just need to look at the majority of rental sites – do you see a pattern?

It’s a closed mentality, some don’t allow you to publish your website, some charge extra for that. Extra for a golf/ski listing. Extra for more photos.

Personally, I’d love to see the whole business model disrupted so that it becomes impossible to charge a subscription – maybe one day, eh?

As far as backends go, I’ll say this: if you keep looking behind you, you won’t see what’s up front.

Have a nice weekend

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Points taken Darren about the honesty thingy (I actually think you’re one of the good guys) but my generalisations are not based on the fly by nights. Some of my criticisms are based on the biggest rental provider HomeAway.

The fact is the business model of paying subscriptions will be disrupted eventually as the market is over saturated, the barrier to entry is already low. The guys at Digg.com spent $900 on their site – look at it now!

Holiday rental sites have not embraced social networking for a very good reason, it would mean their service having to be free. That is not acceptable from their point of view but I’m afriad they’ll have no choice, eventually. That is great news for owners and holiday-makers alike.

Of course, they will insert Google maps, use RSS, include icons to social bookmarking sites (probably without understanding the ins & outs but just because they look cool etc) and dress it all up as being web 2.0 (no doubt commanding higher fees)

But that’s not what web 2.0 is about – it’s something deeper than that, something more intrinsic.

The point is being missed I feel.

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Darren, in reference to your comment above that “fly by nights think its easy to create a website” – it is! it’s very easy, as illustrated by the Digg guys.

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Therein lies the challenge: how to make money.

The Digg guys probably don’t rely on the site for income perhaps because they wanted to protect its integrity and credibility? Perhaps it’s not an issue as they know they’ll get bought out. I read that it’s worth $15m

del.icio.us don’t run ads (they tried and dumped the idea) but they have cash in the bank courtesy of Yahoo.

As far as Web2.0 goes, this is probably the best source since it was O’Reilly who coined the phrase and indeed, allegedly, own it… http://rubyurl.com/Q1X

For me personally, it’s about a shift in mentality – a state of mind: openness, transparency, collaboration, conversation, sociability, empowerment of simple ideas, disruption etc…

This is what it represents to me and has absolutely nothing, in my mind, to do with the technologies. Although it is indeed the various associated technologies that characterise web 2.0

I suspect that many site owners are focusing on the technologies and not the mentality – this will of course be exposed by hardcore web 2.0 folk. That is what I meant by credibility in my earlier post – it’s all so important now.

The other thing I’ve come to realise about the web 2.0 brigade is the collective power they wield. You need them on your side because right now, it is they who generate the buzz and keep the whole ‘thing’ (whatever that thing is) alive. After all, they know how to use social media to good effect where some people are still struggling with how to put a simple website together.

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Hi Darren

Enjoying your rants, as always. This debate seems to have become quite animated!

Something I found really useful when I was first exploring the ins and outs of web2.0 and blogs in general is Seth Godin’s ‘Incomplete Guide to Blogs And The New Web’ – you may well have encountered it already, but thought I’d bring it up nonetheless.

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2005/09/whos_there_the_.html

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Well it can’t be that much of a hindrance…. Google just paid $1.65 billion for YouTube!

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Alex, true enough but that means it will become a hindrance for the rest of us as they’ll plaster cr@ppy Adsense all over the shop. Someone will come up with a cooler social video site with no ads.

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Pia, love what you’re doing with the Backpackers blog – good work!

I read that Seth book at the time and just read it again, a year later. I particularly like the first bit about the big guys having to watch out. That’s very resonant right now. Times are changing and I feel that certain business models in the travel/vacation industry will be disrupted (as in the music industry)

I also like what he says about RSS, that he’s not bothered by the technology but more by its (RSS) implications.

A mistake business owners seem to make is their fixation with the new web 2.0 technologies i.e must have Google maps, must have RSS, must have social media icons. They’ve got their web2.0 checklist but miss the vital point: don’t hook this stuff up to a tired business model, it won’t work. It will be seen as fake and half-assed, rather than half-baked, which is acceptable. There is a difference!

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Sorry for the multiple posts but this is my chosen subject

I meant to say UNacceptable in the above post.

This came up on my radar this morning and I felt kinda vindicated in my philosophy about what web 2.0 is and isn’t. And how I feel that business owners are making a fundamental mistake fixating on the technoology… http://rubyurl.com/Iqp

Apart from the mentality, it’s also about experience, and equally the execution of those things.

The longer your competitors miss the point the better, as it prolongs the opportunities out there.

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I think we broke away from the question in hand.

Are social sites an hinderance or useful to travel companies?

They are only a hinderance if you have poor customer relations and do not have a satisfactory customer complaints procedure. If you have a proper procedure, the majority of travellers will not go to these lengths to complain.

Personally, I think they are useful, and we have used sites like YouTube.com to promote our travel agency business in Leeds.

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>>>> Someone will come up with a cooler social video site with no ads.

Mikeyboy, I thought you were discussing earlier about old business models, this is now an old business model, and ads or no ads no one will make the same success with a clone of youtube.

To be successful you have to be unique.

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>> To be successful you have to be unique.

Um, I don’t agree with that statement at all as there’s tons of examples, in life, as on the internet itself, that contradict your assertion quite emphatically. Of course you can be successful without being unique.

>> no one will make the same success with a clone of youtube

I wouldn’t be so sure about that

The thing about YouTube is there didn’t appear to be a business model other than an exit strategy for its creators, who it must be said had huge VC invested in their site. Not mention its pedigree (ex- Paypal guys etc)

Now it has been aquired (for Google stock – they didn’t pay cash remember), there is now a business model – new or old, that isn’t the point here.

My point about old business models is the online travel scene is due for some disruption. Wait and see!

In the context, I was talking about the business model of vacation rental sites charging subscriptions – I think that is something that will be disrupted in due course.

Clare, I’d be interested to know what success you had from promoting your business on YouTube – how did you measure it, or rather how did it measure?

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well said, Darren!!

spill the beans, MikeyBoy.

unless, of course, your finely crafted comments are just those of a frustrated developer and there really is no site at all – it’s just lurking in your imagination somewhere…

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Who said I’ve got a website that is going to cause disruption? Is that your assumption? I know of one but for obvious reasons of non-disclosure cannot tell you

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Darren, sorry but I think that is YOUR assumption – I don’t recall saying I was working on something that will change the travell indusrty. I do know of something in the pipeline which will disrupt the holiday rental scene. I’m acting as a consultant but can’t take credit

It’s a beautifully simple idea and one that willl be well executed. That is all I can say.

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Yes YouTube is certainly a very useful site… have you read about Sony and their online Bravia campaign?

They even had hundred of spoof videos pop up all over the internet . Although this may not been seen by the traditionalists as the best PR. In todays world it probably can’t get any better.

For an audience to think your brand/product is of the authority to imitate and spend the time to do so, good or bad is going to put a big push in social media marketing.

Like we are doing now…. whats better than getting unique user created content?

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Darren, if Ebay are behind it then I’d imagine it would be around a while

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True enough Darren but don’t overlook what holiday-consumers want either. You know, the other people involved in the transaction

It’s not all about vacation rental owners, or is it?

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Well this certainly wont help with the uptake of social media sites if this directive comes in!!!!

“Amateur ‘video bloggers’ under threat from EU broadcast rules”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2407359,00.html

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